I work for local government as a software developer on a high profile
project. The
system I have developed in conjunction with a more senior member of
staff, is heavilly
dependent upon a set of software components for which I own the
copyright. I developed
the components before I accepted the job. ( Even if I had developed
them during my time
at the council in the evenings, the copyright would still be mine -
I've checked my
contract, scrutinised all the relevent documents, and confirmed it with
HR and my line
manager.)

Ownership of the copyright is not my question. I started using my
components on the
project to ease the development of the project, saving the council 6
man months worth
of work. My immediate supervisor started using the components too. At
no point have
I discussed the use of my components or agreed upon a written contract
governing their
usage. They just seem to have slipped into useage. If they were taken
away, the project
would miss it's deadlines.

The authority now wants to sell the system I've developed in work (
which is dependent
upon my copyrighted components ). For reasons I won't go into, my good
will has backfired
spectacularly on me. I was hoping if you could answer the three
following questions:

1. Can I stop the council shipping my components as part of any sales?

2. Can I stop them using my components full stop? If I were a plasterer
and started
bringing my own tools into work, and then decided not to do so anymore,
could the
council appropriate them because I've been using them for the past year
and my
colleagues have been borrowing them? My components are simply tools
that do background
work for the programmers, saving them development time. They could all
be easily re-written
by the authority.

3. Can I retrospectively add a licence and terms and conditions? For
example, if I distribute a new
copy of my components that ask for a licence key in six months would
that be ok? Who would
I have to tell and what would I have to say?

To aid the context, senior management have no substantial knowledge of
the day to day
work of the software developers. Indeed, we use large numbers of "open
source" components
whose licence terms and conditions have never been scrutinised. Little
is controlled, we
seem to drift around.

Many thanks in advance.

It is far too complex for a detailed answer from this, or any other, NG. You
need paid for, professional advice from a specialist in copyright and
employment law.

Peter Crosland

JavaEnquirer wrote:
I work for local government as a software developer on a high profile
project. The
system I have developed in conjunction with a more senior member of
staff, is heavilly
dependent upon a set of software components for which I own the
copyright. I developed
the components before I accepted the job. ( Even if I had developed
them during my time
at the council in the evenings, the copyright would still be mine -
I've checked my
contract, scrutinised all the relevent documents, and confirmed it with
HR and my line
manager.)

Ownership of the copyright is not my question. I started using my
components on the
project to ease the development of the project, saving the council 6
man months worth
of work. My immediate supervisor started using the components too. At
no point have
I discussed the use of my components or agreed upon a written contract
governing their
usage. They just seem to have slipped into useage. If they were taken
away, the project
would miss it's deadlines.

The authority now wants to sell the system I've developed in work (
which is dependent
upon my copyrighted components ). For reasons I won't go into, my good
will has backfired
spectacularly on me. I was hoping if you could answer the three
following questions:

1. Can I stop the council shipping my components as part of any sales?

2. Can I stop them using my components full stop? If I were a plasterer
and started
bringing my own tools into work, and then decided not to do so anymore,
could the
council appropriate them because I've been using them for the past year
and my
colleagues have been borrowing them? My components are simply tools
that do background
work for the programmers, saving them development time. They could all
be easily re-written
by the authority.

3. Can I retrospectively add a licence and terms and conditions? For
example, if I distribute a new
copy of my components that ask for a licence key in six months would
that be ok? Who would
I have to tell and what would I have to say?

To aid the context, senior management have no substantial knowledge of
the day to day
work of the software developers. Indeed, we use large numbers of "open
source" components
whose licence terms and conditions have never been scrutinised. Little
is controlled, we
seem to drift around.

Many thanks in advance.


ISTM that it isn't so much a case of the plasterer bringing in his
tools, but his own plaster.. You were, presumably, happy at that time
for the modules to be used in the project and, unless you had some
understanding, I cannot see how you can simply reconsider that decision
now that the circumstances have altered.

You should be able to limit the use of your modules to that specific
project, with any luck. That is more the equivalent of the plasterer
removing his tools so they cannot be used in future.

--
Sue

"JavaEnquirer" wrote in message
oups.com...
I work for local government as a software developer on a high profile
project. The
system I have developed in conjunction with a more senior member of
staff, is heavilly
dependent upon a set of software components for which I own the
copyright. I developed
the components before I accepted the job. ( Even if I had developed
them during my time
at the council in the evenings, the copyright would still be mine -
I've checked my
contract, scrutinised all the relevent documents, and confirmed it with
HR and my line
manager.)

Ownership of the copyright is not my question. I started using my
components on the
project to ease the development of the project, saving the council 6
man months worth
of work. My immediate supervisor started using the components too. At
no point have
I discussed the use of my components or agreed upon a written contract
governing their
usage. They just seem to have slipped into useage. If they were taken
away, the project
would miss it's deadlines.

The authority now wants to sell the system I've developed in work (
which is dependent
upon my copyrighted components ). For reasons I won't go into, my good
will has backfired
spectacularly on me. I was hoping if you could answer the three
following questions:

1. Can I stop the council shipping my components as part of any sales?

2. Can I stop them using my components full stop? If I were a plasterer
and started
bringing my own tools into work, and then decided not to do so anymore,
could the
council appropriate them because I've been using them for the past year
and my
colleagues have been borrowing them? My components are simply tools
that do background
work for the programmers, saving them development time. They could all
be easily re-written
by the authority.

3. Can I retrospectively add a licence and terms and conditions? For
example, if I distribute a new
copy of my components that ask for a licence key in six months would
that be ok? Who would
I have to tell and what would I have to say?

To aid the context, senior management have no substantial knowledge of
the day to day
work of the software developers. Indeed, we use large numbers of "open
source" components
whose licence terms and conditions have never been scrutinised. Little
is controlled, we
seem to drift around.

Many thanks in advance.


If you do own the copyright, you have probably impliedly licensed their use
for all or part of the specific project, but otherwise you can prevent the
reproduction of your code in anyone else's software. Sounds to me like you
are in a good position to demand some money, but talk to a specialist
solicitor first. Lawyers advising software owners are always worried about a
developer owning copyright in components.

"Tools" in software terms have different meanings in my experience - if your
code is incorporated in the software or required for it to run, you can
prevent that; but if the tools are development tools used to develop
stand-alone code, you don't own the copyright in the product of the tool.
But you called it a component, which suggests the former.

Analogies to plasterers don't really help.

Chris R

Owain wrote:
At what point did you obtain council authorisation to use software to
which the council did not have copyright or rights granted under a
licence?

But he is the copyright holder if he wrote the code - he gave himself the
permission to do this.

--
Alex

"I laugh in the face of danger. Then I hide until it goes away"

www.drzoidberg.co.uk www.ebayfaq.co.uk

Dr Zoidberg wrote:
Owain wrote:
At what point did you obtain council authorisation to use software to
which the council did not have copyright or rights granted under a
licence?

But he is the copyright holder if he wrote the code - he gave himself the
permission to do this.

He may still have needed permission from the council to use the code.

I know of companies that will not allow their programmers to use
programs or libraries that come under Gnu licenses. The license would
allow the programmer to use the library but it would be against company
policy to use it and probably a severe disciplinary offense as it could
"infect" a lot of other code and be expensive to remove.

Alan

ChrisR wrote:
"JavaEnquirer" wrote in message
oups.com...
I work for local government as a software developer on a high profile
project. The
system I have developed in conjunction with a more senior member of
staff, is heavilly
dependent upon a set of software components for which I own the
copyright. I developed

cut lots


The authority now wants to sell the system I've developed in work (
which is dependent
upon my copyrighted components ). For reasons I won't go into, my good
will has backfired
spectacularly on me. I was hoping if you could answer the three
following questions:

1. Can I stop the council shipping my components as part of any sales?

2. Can I stop them using my components full stop? If I were a plasterer
and started
bringing my own tools into work, and then decided not to do so anymore,
could the
council appropriate them because I've been using them for the past year
and my
colleagues have been borrowing them? My components are simply tools
that do background
work for the programmers, saving them development time. They could all
be easily re-written
by the authority.

3. Can I retrospectively add a licence and terms and conditions? For
example, if I distribute a new
copy of my components that ask for a licence key in six months would
that be ok? Who would
I have to tell and what would I have to say?

To aid the context, senior management have no substantial knowledge of
the day to day
work of the software developers. Indeed, we use large numbers of "open
source" components
whose licence terms and conditions have never been scrutinised. Little
is controlled, we
seem to drift around.

Many thanks in advance.


If you do own the copyright, you have probably impliedly licensed their use
for all or part of the specific project, but otherwise you can prevent the
reproduction of your code in anyone else's software. Sounds to me like you
are in a good position to demand some money, but talk to a specialist
solicitor first. Lawyers advising software owners are always worried about a
developer owning copyright in components.

I thought copyright can only be explicitly assigned (with a written
document?) in which case an implicit licence can't be created. Is that
right?

Stephen

In article .com,
says...
I work for local government as a software developer on a high profile
project. The
system I have developed in conjunction with a more senior member of
staff, is heavilly
dependent upon a set of software components for which I own the
copyright. I developed
the components before I accepted the job. ( Even if I had developed
them during my time
at the council in the evenings, the copyright would still be mine -
I've checked my
contract, scrutinised all the relevent documents, and confirmed it with
HR and my line
manager.)

Ownership of the copyright is not my question. I started using my
components on the
project to ease the development of the project, saving the council 6
man months worth
of work. My immediate supervisor started using the components too. At
no point have
I discussed the use of my components or agreed upon a written contract
governing their
usage. They just seem to have slipped into useage. If they were taken
away, the project
would miss it's deadlines.

The authority now wants to sell the system I've developed in work (
which is dependent
upon my copyrighted components ). For reasons I won't go into, my good
will has backfired
spectacularly on me. I was hoping if you could answer the three
following questions:

1. Can I stop the council shipping my components as part of any sales?

2. Can I stop them using my components full stop? If I were a plasterer
and started
bringing my own tools into work, and then decided not to do so anymore,
could the
council appropriate them because I've been using them for the past year
and my
colleagues have been borrowing them? My components are simply tools
that do background
work for the programmers, saving them development time. They could all
be easily re-written
by the authority.

3. Can I retrospectively add a licence and terms and conditions? For
example, if I distribute a new
copy of my components that ask for a licence key in six months would

On the basis of this message I would say you have no rights at all in
this case.

As a rule of thumb never do anything for "good will" for an employer.

For example if you volunteer to work christmas day - your employer may be
legally entitled to demand you do so every year from then on.

Us ordinary folk need to stop behaving like work zombies and realise that
the reason we go to work is to earn for ourselves not the company. If
they want something "extra" make them pay every time - if you don't it
could easily turn round and bite you when you least expect it. And by pay
I do mean in cash.

But even if you did want to try it on you'd need a bank account to shame
bill gates to get anywhere with it.

People who write computer software "at work" and then go home and write
computer software "for themselves" should also be very careful what they
do all round.

That may not apply in this case but I'd keep it in mind if I were you.
Especially if you later want to argue with an employer.

-colin-

In article ,
says...
But it's the *council's* computer, and he may now be trying to get the
council to pay for having this software on there - software which was
installed by an employee without their permission.

It could be a messy situation.


As a computer programmer he is employed by the council to put software
there. I don't think that could be any arguament to worry about.

If he were just a computer "user" the case would be different.

-colin-

In article ,
says...

Only software which the council is allowed to use. If as a computer
programmer he put a pirate copy of MS VisualWhatsit without a proper
licence on the system he'd be in trouble.

Owain


Well sorry - I did assume were were not discussing criminal behaviour so
didn't allow for that.

-colin-