On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 16:00:08 +0000, "ChrisR"
y.com.address
wrote:

The OP wasn't asking about location of boundaries - only about ownership of
fences. If there are T-marks on the Land Registry plans, that is pretty
conclusive unless there is strong evidence that something else has happened
on the ground. Of course there may be no T-marks...

There are no T marks. Modern property - built 1995, I purchased in
1999. Fences built by developer.

Next stop getting the deeds out of storage I presume.

Daytona

"Daytona" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 16:00:08 +0000, "ChrisR"
y.com.address
wrote:

The OP wasn't asking about location of boundaries - only about ownership
of
fences. If there are T-marks on the Land Registry plans, that is pretty
conclusive unless there is strong evidence that something else has
happened
on the ground. Of course there may be no T-marks...

There are no T marks. Modern property - built 1995, I purchased in
1999. Fences built by developer.

Next stop getting the deeds out of storage I presume.

Daytona

If the plots were laid out in 1995 it's unlikely there will be any relevant
pre-registration deeds; it's quite surprising there are no T-marks; you are
looking at the filed plan for your title, aren't you? Unless the Land
Registry entries contain fencing covenants (eg "to build and forever
maintain a 1.8m fence along the right-hand boundary") I doubt if there is
any more to be found. The construction of the fence may give rise to a legal
presumption, if the posts are on one side: the posts are presumed to be on
the owner's side.

Of course just because they own the fence doesn't mean they are obliged to
repair it.

Chris R

ChrisR wrote:
"Peter Crosland" wrote in message
...
A fence at a property I own and rent out has blown down during
the storms. Are details of ownership of fences on the deeds/plan
available from Registry Trust online ?


On the outline map supplied with my house deeds, the boundaries
that I am liable to maintain are marked along that border with
what looks a small 'T' on my side of the fence.
If the neighbour is liable, the 'T' is on his side.
I have no idea if this is typical marking of boundaries.

It is. The file plan obtainable from HM Land Registry will
indicate fence ownership with T marks when it was shown in the
information submitted when the property was registered.

Oh that it was so simple! Take a look at
http://www.boundary-problems.co.uk/
as a starting point.

Great site, but I didn't see anything there inconsistent with what I
said; in fact is says the same thing with regard to T-marks.

The point I was trying to amke is that the T marks are only the
starting point and that the law relating to boundaries is often much
more complex.

Peter Crosland

The OP wasn't asking about location of boundaries - only about
ownership of fences. If there are T-marks on the Land Registry plans,
that is pretty conclusive unless there is strong evidence that
something else has happened on the ground. Of course there may be no
T-marks...

But the ownership of the fence and liability for it may well depend on the
exact location of the boundary as well as other factors. It really is a
minefield as I know from personal experience.

Peter Crosland

ChrisR y.com.address
wrote:

"Daytona" wrote in message

There are no T marks. Modern property - built 1995, I purchased in
1999. Fences built by developer.
Next stop getting the deeds out of storage I presume.

If the plots were laid out in 1995 it's unlikely there will be any relevant
pre-registration deeds; it's quite surprising there are no T-marks; you are
looking at the filed plan for your title, aren't you?
snip

On reading this, I again had a look at my deeds, downloaded from the LR
site. On the supplied map, there are no "T' marks shown at all, yet I
have a printed map, which was supplied by my Solicitor on the purchase
of the house, the same as the downloaded one, except there are "T" marks
on this one, as well as measurements along each boundary.
So, to the OP, the local borough Council may hold these more detailed
maps?

Of course just because they own the fence doesn't mean they are obliged to
repair it.

I was told that I must maintain the boundary fence, but it did not state
in any detail what that entailed, when I bought the house, 2 of the
'fences' were just 3 lines of wire between the concrete posts, as
originally fitted by the builders. This summised as enough to show the
boundary, and I didnt have to erect any fences.
Alan.

--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

"Peter Crosland" wrote in message
...
ChrisR wrote:
"Peter Crosland" wrote in message
...
A fence at a property I own and rent out has blown down during
the storms. Are details of ownership of fences on the deeds/plan
available from Registry Trust online ?


On the outline map supplied with my house deeds, the boundaries
that I am liable to maintain are marked along that border with
what looks a small 'T' on my side of the fence.
If the neighbour is liable, the 'T' is on his side.
I have no idea if this is typical marking of boundaries.

It is. The file plan obtainable from HM Land Registry will
indicate fence ownership with T marks when it was shown in the
information submitted when the property was registered.

Oh that it was so simple! Take a look at
http://www.boundary-problems.co.uk/
as a starting point.

Great site, but I didn't see anything there inconsistent with what I
said; in fact is says the same thing with regard to T-marks.

The point I was trying to amke is that the T marks are only the
starting point and that the law relating to boundaries is often much
more complex.

Peter Crosland

The OP wasn't asking about location of boundaries - only about
ownership of fences. If there are T-marks on the Land Registry plans,
that is pretty conclusive unless there is strong evidence that
something else has happened on the ground. Of course there may be no
T-marks...

But the ownership of the fence and liability for it may well depend on the
exact location of the boundary as well as other factors. It really is a
minefield as I know from personal experience.

Peter Crosland


If the builder erected the fences when he owned the land on both sides, and
didn't specify the ownership of the fence, and there are no other boundary
markers, and the posts are on the line and not on one side, it's my guess is
that the boundary is actually the fence line, and you have a "party" fence -
which is pretty unsatisfactory. The Land Registry plan isn't precise enough
to show whether the boundary is on one side or the other of a fence, absent
T marks. So ownership of the fence is likely to determine the ownership of
the land it stands on, rather than the other way round.

Chris R

On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 21:30:04 +0000, "ChrisR"
y.com.address
wrote:

If the builder erected the fences when he owned the land on both sides, and
didn't specify the ownership of the fence, and there are no other boundary
markers, and the posts are on the line and not on one side, it's my guess is
that the boundary is actually the fence line, and you have a "party" fence -
which is pretty unsatisfactory.

I found the builders plans, which do have T's and it crosses the
boundary line g ! -

¦
¦
¦
¦ ¦
¦--+--- My side
¦ ¦
¦
¦
¦

The fence is standard wood slats that slides into slots in the
concrete posts, so there is no side.

What does all this mean then ?

Thanks

Daytona

On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 18:40:02 +0000, "ChrisR"
y.com.address
wrote:

The construction of the fence may give rise to a legal
presumption, if the posts are on one side: the posts are presumed to be on
the owner's side.

Nope, the position of the posts wrt the panels has *no* legal bearing
on ownership of the fence,

Cheers,

John

Daytona wrote in
:

On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 21:30:04 +0000, "ChrisR"
y.com.address
wrote:

If the builder erected the fences when he owned the land on both
sides, and didn't specify the ownership of the fence, and there are no
other boundary markers, and the posts are on the line and not on one
side, it's my guess is that the boundary is actually the fence line,
and you have a "party" fence - which is pretty unsatisfactory.

I found the builders plans, which do have T's and it crosses the
boundary line g ! -

¦
¦
¦
¦ ¦
¦--+--- My side
¦ ¦
¦
¦
¦

The fence is standard wood slats that slides into slots in the
concrete posts, so there is no side.

What does all this mean then ?

Thanks

Daytona


The position of the "T" in this case indicates that, all other things
being equal, YOU own and are responsible for the fence.
Normally, the "T" isn't shown crossing the boundary line but butts on to
it, but in this case the meaning is quite clear.
The actual deeds overide the builder plans IF they contradict what I have
said.

Terry W

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 00:25:03 +0000, "Terry W."
wrote:

Daytona wrote in
:

On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 21:30:04 +0000, "ChrisR"
y.com.address
wrote:

If the builder erected the fences when he owned the land on both
sides, and didn't specify the ownership of the fence, and there are no
other boundary markers, and the posts are on the line and not on one
side, it's my guess is that the boundary is actually the fence line,
and you have a "party" fence - which is pretty unsatisfactory.

I found the builders plans, which do have T's and it crosses the
boundary line g ! -

¦
¦
¦
¦ ¦
¦--+--- My side
¦ ¦
¦
¦
¦

The fence is standard wood slats that slides into slots in the
concrete posts, so there is no side.

What does all this mean then ?

Thanks

Daytona


The position of the "T" in this case indicates that, all other things
being equal, YOU own and are responsible for the fence.
Normally, the "T" isn't shown crossing the boundary line but butts on to
it, but in this case the meaning is quite clear.
The actual deeds overide the builder plans IF they contradict what I have
said.



Hang on...

The 'T' is on his neighbours side. So the fence is his neighbour's
problem. Isn't it?

David

David J wrote in
:

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 00:25:03 +0000, "Terry W."
wrote:

Daytona wrote in
m:

On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 21:30:04 +0000, "ChrisR"
y.com.address
wrote:

If the builder erected the fences when he owned the land on both
sides, and didn't specify the ownership of the fence, and there are
no other boundary markers, and the posts are on the line and not on
one side, it's my guess is that the boundary is actually the fence
line, and you have a "party" fence - which is pretty unsatisfactory.

I found the builders plans, which do have T's and it crosses the
boundary line g ! -

¦
¦
¦
¦ ¦
¦--+--- My side
¦ ¦
¦
¦
¦

The fence is standard wood slats that slides into slots in the
concrete posts, so there is no side.

What does all this mean then ?

Thanks

Daytona


The position of the "T" in this case indicates that, all other things
being equal, YOU own and are responsible for the fence.
Normally, the "T" isn't shown crossing the boundary line but butts on
to it, but in this case the meaning is quite clear.
The actual deeds overide the builder plans IF they contradict what I
have said.



Hang on...

The 'T' is on his neighbours side. So the fence is his neighbour's
problem. Isn't it?

David


I know what you mean - but the convention, and it is only a convention,
is that the "T" has the tail in the "owners" side.

Terry W