Nice little scam the mobile phone suppliers have going. My son's
Samsung E900 developed a fault after 5 months. Phoned Phones4U...went
through a well rehearsed ( no doubt scripted) conversation where the
caveats were explained in detail. I agreed to go ahead and was sent a
pre-paid envelope with yet more explanation on caveats. Sent the phone
off, phoned them 2 weeks later for a status check. " Your phone has
suffered liquid damage and deemed beyond economical repair". I can
understand the phone being beyond economical repair due to the fault
as we live in a throw-away society, but they say the warranty is
invalidated due to the liquid damage and are refusing the claim. I pay
£17.35 and have the phone returned and a "technical report". They
won't say what the report will contain, they don't allow you to speak
to anyone more senior and give a different phone number/email contact
for complaints.
Seems phones have little dots that turn red when immersed in water OR
when moisture has been present at some stage ie the last few weeks
when the UK has been soaking. They seem to be using the red dots as a
warranty get-out.There are likely millions of phones with dots that
have turned red and still work normally, but as soon as your phone
develops a fault they have a ready made warranty escape
I'd like to take the issue further and ask for evidence of the liquid
damage eg photo's of the corrosion or damage to the components, but I
suspect me paying the £17.35 will only get me a standard letter saying
there's evidence of liquid damage and maybe showing the red dot. Any
advice on wording or the line to take when writing my complaint would
be gratefully received

wrote:
Nice little scam the mobile phone suppliers have going. My son's
Samsung E900 developed a fault after 5 months. Phoned Phones4U...went
through a well rehearsed ( no doubt scripted) conversation where the
caveats were explained in detail. I agreed to go ahead and was sent a
pre-paid envelope with yet more explanation on caveats. Sent the phone
off, phoned them 2 weeks later for a status check. " Your phone has
suffered liquid damage and deemed beyond economical repair". I can
understand the phone being beyond economical repair due to the fault
as we live in a throw-away society, but they say the warranty is
invalidated due to the liquid damage and are refusing the claim. I pay
£17.35 and have the phone returned and a "technical report". They
won't say what the report will contain, they don't allow you to speak
to anyone more senior and give a different phone number/email contact
for complaints.
Seems phones have little dots that turn red when immersed in water OR
when moisture has been present at some stage ie the last few weeks
when the UK has been soaking. They seem to be using the red dots as a
warranty get-out.There are likely millions of phones with dots that
have turned red and still work normally, but as soon as your phone
develops a fault they have a ready made warranty escape
I'd like to take the issue further and ask for evidence of the liquid
damage eg photo's of the corrosion or damage to the components, but I
suspect me paying the £17.35 will only get me a standard letter saying
there's evidence of liquid damage and maybe showing the red dot. Any
advice on wording or the line to take when writing my complaint would
be gratefully received

I wonder if the dot turns red if the phone is in a humid room (eg a
bathroom after someone has had a shower) or a humid pocket of a shirt
when someone has been sweating a lot.

If your son is sure that he did not submerge the phone in water or leave
it out in the rain, then I think you should insist on a refund from the
supplier. I'd just buy another one, and claim the purchase cost of the
old one from them by (if necessary, and after a suitable ultimatum)
suing using Money Claim Online.

The Todal wrote:
wrote:
Nice little scam the mobile phone suppliers have going. My son's
Samsung E900 developed a fault after 5 months. Phoned Phones4U...went
through a well rehearsed ( no doubt scripted) conversation where the
caveats were explained in detail. I agreed to go ahead and was sent a
pre-paid envelope with yet more explanation on caveats. Sent the phone
off, phoned them 2 weeks later for a status check. " Your phone has
suffered liquid damage and deemed beyond economical repair". I can
understand the phone being beyond economical repair due to the fault
as we live in a throw-away society, but they say the warranty is
invalidated due to the liquid damage and are refusing the claim. I pay
£17.35 and have the phone returned and a "technical report". They
won't say what the report will contain, they don't allow you to speak
to anyone more senior and give a different phone number/email contact
for complaints.
Seems phones have little dots that turn red when immersed in water OR
when moisture has been present at some stage ie the last few weeks
when the UK has been soaking. They seem to be using the red dots as a
warranty get-out.There are likely millions of phones with dots that
have turned red and still work normally, but as soon as your phone
develops a fault they have a ready made warranty escape
I'd like to take the issue further and ask for evidence of the liquid
damage eg photo's of the corrosion or damage to the components, but I
suspect me paying the £17.35 will only get me a standard letter saying
there's evidence of liquid damage and maybe showing the red dot. Any
advice on wording or the line to take when writing my complaint would
be gratefully received

I wonder if the dot turns red if the phone is in a humid room (eg a
bathroom after someone has had a shower) or a humid pocket of a shirt
when someone has been sweating a lot.

If your son is sure that he did not submerge the phone in water or leave
it out in the rain, then I think you should insist on a refund from the
supplier. I'd just buy another one, and claim the purchase cost of the
old one from them by (if necessary, and after a suitable ultimatum)
suing using Money Claim Online.

Any corrosion or damage to the components is likely to be hidden. And so
not obvious to the layman.
I was not aware that mobile phones contain such indicators, but I can
understand why the manufactures feel they are necessary.

No one is going to confess to soaking their mobile phone when sending it
in for warranty repair!!

Look at it this way before you waste money on Money Claim Online. They
have proof that it has been soaked (the red dots). Can you provide any
proof that its has not?

Chilly

On 15 Aug, 18:25, chilly wrote:
The Todal wrote:
wrote:
Nice little scam the mobile phone suppliers have going. My son's
Samsung E900 developed a fault after 5 months. Phoned Phones4U...went
through a well rehearsed ( no doubt scripted) conversation where the
caveats were explained in detail. I agreed to go ahead and was sent a
pre-paid envelope with yet more explanation on caveats. Sent the phone
off, phoned them 2 weeks later for a status check. " Your phone has
suffered liquid damage and deemed beyond economical repair". I can
understand the phone being beyond economical repair due to the fault
as we live in a throw-away society, but they say the warranty is
invalidated due to the liquid damage and are refusing the claim. I pay
£17.35 and have the phone returned and a "technical report". They
won't say what the report will contain, they don't allow you to speak
to anyone more senior and give a different phone number/email contact
for complaints.
Seems phones have little dots that turn red when immersed in water OR
when moisture has been present at some stage ie the last few weeks
when the UK has been soaking. They seem to be using the red dots as a
warranty get-out.There are likely millions of phones with dots that
have turned red and still work normally, but as soon as your phone
develops a fault they have a ready made warranty escape
I'd like to take the issue further and ask for evidence of the liquid
damage eg photo's of the corrosion or damage to the components, but I
suspect me paying the £17.35 will only get me a standard letter saying
there's evidence of liquid damage and maybe showing the red dot. Any
advice on wording or the line to take when writing my complaint would
be gratefully received

I wonder if the dot turns red if the phone is in a humid room (eg a
bathroom after someone has had a shower) or a humid pocket of a shirt
when someone has been sweating a lot.

If your son is sure that he did not submerge the phone in water or leave
it out in the rain, then I think you should insist on a refund from the
supplier. I'd just buy another one, and claim the purchase cost of the
old one from them by (if necessary, and after a suitable ultimatum)
suing using Money Claim Online.

Any corrosion or damage to the components is likely to be hidden. And so
not obvious to the layman.
I was not aware that mobile phones contain such indicators, but I can
understand why the manufactures feel they are necessary.

No one is going to confess to soaking their mobile phone when sending it
in for warranty repair!!

Look at it this way before you waste money on Money Claim Online. They
have proof that it has been soaked (the red dots). Can you provide any
proof that its has not?

Chilly- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Read this then if you don't know about the dots.
http://architectures.danlockton.co.uk/?p=143 30 years in the IT
industry and associated customer service tells me they are trying it
on and most people buy it. In the olden days, hardware used to come
with a similar red dot system indicating the kit had been tilted more
than 45 degrees and the manufacturers claimed the kit could not be
installed and had to be written off. Of course, 99.9% of the time the
kit was fine , but they had a get-out from a warranty claim or so they
thought. When the buyers tried to claim on their insurance or against
the transport companies insurers the loss adjustors got involved and
invariably the kit was installed and worked fine for years rather than
the insurers paying out. The costs are of course vastly different, but
in law the principle is the same. Just because some chemical has
changed to red because it has been exposed to a degree of moisture( in
the plant of manufacture ?) does not give them grounds to reject a
warranty claim. They must prove that the liquid damage has caused
component failure leading to the fault on the phone. Of course they
make it very difficult to claim on warranty........they now have my
handset, I can't talk to anyone with any decision making-authority,
they demand £17.35 for a technical report they won't tell me what will
be included in that report, they have successfully rejected 1000's of
similar claims so they think they can carry on.
Did the banks not get away with charging ludicrous amounts for going
overdrawn for years ? When challenged in the courts, they were stuffed
because what they were doing was not reasonable. I suggest that the
mobile phone suppliers are acting just as unreasonably.
A red dot merely indicates moisture at some level has been present
at some time. I want to challenge their right to reject my warranty
claim. They must be able to prove that the "liquid damage" is the
cause of the fault on the phone , otherwise they are acting
unreasonably.

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 18:25:04 +0100, chilly put finger to keyboard and
typed:

The Todal wrote:
wrote:

I'd like to take the issue further and ask for evidence of the liquid
damage eg photo's of the corrosion or damage to the components, but I
suspect me paying the £17.35 will only get me a standard letter saying
there's evidence of liquid damage and maybe showing the red dot. Any
advice on wording or the line to take when writing my complaint would
be gratefully received

I wonder if the dot turns red if the phone is in a humid room (eg a
bathroom after someone has had a shower) or a humid pocket of a shirt
when someone has been sweating a lot.

If your son is sure that he did not submerge the phone in water or leave
it out in the rain, then I think you should insist on a refund from the
supplier. I'd just buy another one, and claim the purchase cost of the
old one from them by (if necessary, and after a suitable ultimatum)
suing using Money Claim Online.

Any corrosion or damage to the components is likely to be hidden. And so
not obvious to the layman.
I was not aware that mobile phones contain such indicators, but I can
understand why the manufactures feel they are necessary.

No one is going to confess to soaking their mobile phone when sending it
in for warranty repair!!

Look at it this way before you waste money on Money Claim Online. They
have proof that it has been soaked (the red dots). Can you provide any
proof that its has not?

The OP doesn't need to prove that it has not. The SOGA is quite
explicit in this respect: if a fault develops within 6 months of
purchase then the onus is on the supplier to prove that it was not an
inherent fault, not on the purchaser to prove that it was. It may well
be that the red dot is considered sufficient proof should it go to
court, but if so then the supplier will have to provide that proof on
request - they cannot get away with charging the OP for it.

Mark
--
http://www.BritishSurnames.co.uk - What does your surname say about you?
"I need someone to hide under, should the sky fall on my car"

The mobile phone is not designed correctly if water can destroy it. I
suggest, if it has been in water open it up and let it dry out, then gently
brush out any dry residue. If it has been dropped down a lavatory and
covered in pee, then that is a different situation.

Nearly all the components are waterproof.

Anthony R. Gold wrote:
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:40:05 +0100, The Todal
wrote:

I wonder if the dot turns red if the phone is in a humid room (eg a
bathroom after someone has had a shower) or a humid pocket of a shirt
when someone has been sweating a lot.

If your son is sure that he did not submerge the phone in water or leave
it out in the rain, then I think you should insist on a refund from the
supplier. I'd just buy another one, and claim the purchase cost of the
old one from them by (if necessary, and after a suitable ultimatum)
suing using Money Claim Online.

The warranty exclusion for water damage may not require submersion.


I think a judge would say that if you haven't maltreated the phone by
dropping it in water, or leaving it in the rain, or otherwise subjecting
it to excessive moisture, then the phone is probably faulty and the red
dot proves nothing other than that it has been in humid conditions at
some point.

The bottom line is, these phones cost no more than 199 pounds. Is the
defendant (the vendor of the phone) really going to use solicitors and
engineering experts to defend such a claim, with no chance of getting
any costs back from the claimant? Obviously not. So they will settle
unless they are absolutely convinced that they are being presented with
a fraudulent claim.

wrote:
Nice little scam the mobile phone suppliers have going. My son's
Samsung E900 developed a fault after 5 months. Phoned Phones4U...went
through a well rehearsed ( no doubt scripted) conversation where the
caveats were explained in detail. I agreed to go ahead and was sent a
pre-paid envelope with yet more explanation on caveats. Sent the phone
off, phoned them 2 weeks later for a status check. " Your phone has
suffered liquid damage and deemed beyond economical repair". I can
understand the phone being beyond economical repair due to the fault
as we live in a throw-away society, but they say the warranty is
invalidated due to the liquid damage and are refusing the claim. I pay
£17.35 and have the phone returned and a "technical report". They
won't say what the report will contain, they don't allow you to speak
to anyone more senior and give a different phone number/email contact
for complaints.
Seems phones have little dots that turn red when immersed in water OR
when moisture has been present at some stage ie the last few weeks
when the UK has been soaking. They seem to be using the red dots as a
warranty get-out.There are likely millions of phones with dots that
have turned red and still work normally, but as soon as your phone
develops a fault they have a ready made warranty escape
I'd like to take the issue further and ask for evidence of the liquid
damage eg photo's of the corrosion or damage to the components, but I
suspect me paying the £17.35 will only get me a standard letter saying
there's evidence of liquid damage and maybe showing the red dot. Any
advice on wording or the line to take when writing my complaint would
be gratefully received

Together with some friends,(all old farts), we went on a canal adventure
in sunny conditions last October. We went for an evening meal at a local
hostlery and imbibed freely. When walking the gangplank onto the bow of
the boat afterwards there was a little local difficulty in balancing,
resulting in three members of the coterie in the cut together with
mobiles and car keys which were all "dunked". After looking after our
immediate personal needs - drying ourselves and putting on dry clothing,
we opened phones and a carkey to allow them to dry. The next day all
worked. I suspect that the "red spots" (which are news to me) could
easily become red in humid conditions such as shirt pocket when sweaty,
particularly if under a waterproof coat whilst walking.

If the unit has not been dunked then stand your ground.

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 23:10:06 +0100, The Todal
wrote:


I think a judge would say that if you haven't maltreated the phone by
dropping it in water, or leaving it in the rain, or otherwise subjecting
it to excessive moisture, then the phone is probably faulty and the red
dot proves nothing other than that it has been in humid conditions at
some point.

"Liquid damage" on phones is very common, usually alcohol related,
and very simple to see. It doesn't require dots, red or otherwise,
just a glance at the keyboard PCB. Plaintive cries of "I kept it dry
- honest guv" mean little when the little white rivulets of dried
liquid and green corrosion on the copper tracks are plain to see.
--
Peter Parry
Hemel Hempstead

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 23:00:19 +0100, Anthony R. Gold put finger to
keyboard and typed:

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 22:10:04 +0100, Mark Goodge
wrote:

It may well
be that the red dot is considered sufficient proof should it go to
court, but if so then the supplier will have to provide that proof on
request - they cannot get away with charging the OP for it.

Why must the supplier provide this proof for free to the consumer?

Because his alternative is to provide the required repair or
replacement. The SoGA gives the consumer a right to repair or
replacement if the goods fail within six months of purchase unless the
supplier can demonstrate that the fault was not inherent at time of
purchase. Refusing to provide a repair or replacement on the grounds
that "we know that the item has been damaged subsequently to purchase,
but we're not going to tell you how we know" isn't going to stand up
in court.

What the law actually says is that:

goods which do not conform to the contract of sale at any time
within the period of six months starting with the date on which the
goods were delivered to the buyer must be taken not to have so
conformed at that date.

but with the supplier's get-out that the above does not apply if:

it is established that the goods did so conform at that date

That phrase "it is established" means that the evidence establishing
it must be available to all parties in the dispute (and, indeed
agreed, if necessary by recourse to the courts as arbiter). The mere
say-so of the supplier on the basis of evidence which they refuse to
reveal does not constitute establishment.

I can see why doing that may be fair and reasonable, and doing it for a
court to defend their position may be a matter of their own necessity, but
I don't recognise the source of any obligation to do as you say they must.

Ultimately, the court will decide, but the cost of providing the
necessary evidence to the court is met by the party providing it. If
they had the evidence prior to going to court, but chose to withhold
it until compelled by the court to reveal it, then that would not be
looked on very favourably by the court.

Mark
--
http://www.MotorwayServices.info - read and share comments and opinons
"My light will shine so brightly it will blind you"