The "Train Fare" saga has made me wonder about something that happened
to me this week.

I bought a cheap day return from Paddington ("London Terminals"), but
on the return journey the train stopped at a station which was more
convenient, so I got out. I was expecting, especially after following
the Train Fare thread, to have problems with the staff at the barrier,
but on this occasion everyone seemed to have gone home, so that I
could just walk out.

Was I breaking the terms of the ticket by leaving the train before it
had reached a London Terminal? And if so, would the staff have been
entitled physically to prevent me from leaving the station until I'd
paid a fine?

Apologies if this comes up regularly, I've only been reading for a few
weeks.

--
Jo Lonergan

Jo Lonergan wrote:

Was I breaking the terms of the ticket by leaving the train before it
had reached a London Terminal? And if so, would the staff have been
entitled physically to prevent me from leaving the station until I'd
paid a fine?

On a Cheap Day Return, no, as break of journey and ending short are
permitted on both portions of the ticket. However, that probably
isn't the question you wanted answered, which is presumably what would
have happened if this was done on a ticket where it was explicitly
*not* permitted to do this, such as Advance or Megatrain.

My understanding in that situation is that, if you left the train
early on one of those tickets, you would be treated as if you had
completed the journey you did with no ticket at all (as by doing so
your ticket was rendered invalid, and thus it ceased to exist as a
valid ticket). Thus, the train company would have the option of
charging you a discounted ticket for that journey (unlikely), charging
you the full fare (the most likely in a non-penalty-fare area),
charging you a Penalty Fare (the most likely in a penalty fare area)
or prosecuting you (more likely than it used to be, but not that
likely unless they think you are deliberately trying to defraud, often
on a repeated basis).

If they chose one of the first 3, and you refused to pay, it would be
pursued in the same way as if no fare was paid. This might be by way
of chasing it up as a civil debt (in the case of a Penalty Fare you
don't have to pay on the spot if you give your details) or by
recoursing to option 4 of prosecution.

In no case, though, are staff permitted to physically prevent you
leaving the station once the formalities for each of the options they
have are carried out, though they may seek your arrest by the BTP if
you refuse to pay *and* refuse to give correct details in order to
allow those options to be pursued.

Neil

I bought a cheap day return from Paddington ("London Terminals"), but
on the return journey the train stopped at a station which was more
convenient, so I got out. I was expecting, especially after following

Cheap day return tickets allow you to break the journey on both the
outward and return trips.

From the National Conditions of Carriage:

"16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in
the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the
ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also
end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket)
before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may
not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is
prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this
clear in their notices and other publications."

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:30:07 +0100, " wrote:

I bought a cheap day return from Paddington ("London Terminals"), but
on the return journey the train stopped at a station which was more
convenient, so I got out. I was expecting, especially after following

Cheap day return tickets allow you to break the journey on both the
outward and return trips.

How confusing! Not that long ago the same company made me buy two
returns, Paddington to Reading and Reading to Bath, so that I could
stop off and have lunch with friends on the way. But if I'd had a
cheap day return it seems I could have done so anyway.

From the National Conditions of Carriage:

"16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in
the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the
ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also
end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket)
before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may
not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is
prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this
clear in their notices and other publications."

But really, how can you know? I'm sure such details aren't in the Help
text you can access when buying from the machine. When you enter the
details of your journey in the machine and are offered 8 different
fares, is it reasonable to expect you to note down all their names and
consult a copy of the NCC before return to make your choice?

--
Jo Lonergan

Neil Williams wrote:
Jo Lonergan wrote:

Was I breaking the terms of the ticket by leaving the train before it
had reached a London Terminal? And if so, would the staff have been
entitled physically to prevent me from leaving the station until I'd
paid a fine?

On a Cheap Day Return, no, as break of journey and ending short are
permitted on both portions of the ticket. However, that probably
isn't the question you wanted answered, which is presumably what would
have happened if this was done on a ticket where it was explicitly
*not* permitted to do this, such as Advance or Megatrain.

My understanding in that situation is that, if you left the train
early on one of those tickets, you would be treated as if you had
completed the journey you did with no ticket at all (as by doing so
your ticket was rendered invalid, and thus it ceased to exist as a
valid ticket). Thus, the train company would have the option of
charging you a discounted ticket for that journey (unlikely), charging
you the full fare (the most likely in a non-penalty-fare area),
charging you a Penalty Fare (the most likely in a penalty fare area)
or prosecuting you (more likely than it used to be, but not that
likely unless they think you are deliberately trying to defraud, often
on a repeated basis).

If they chose one of the first 3, and you refused to pay, it would be
pursued in the same way as if no fare was paid. This might be by way
of chasing it up as a civil debt (in the case of a Penalty Fare you
don't have to pay on the spot if you give your details) or by
recoursing to option 4 of prosecution.

In no case, though, are staff permitted to physically prevent you
leaving the station once the formalities for each of the options they
have are carried out, though they may seek your arrest by the BTP if
you refuse to pay *and* refuse to give correct details in order to
allow those options to be pursued.

Neil


Would this apply if the early termination of the journey was for a
reason such as illness?

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

In message , at 11:45:06 on
Wed, 23 Jul 2008, Jo Lonergan remarked:
Cheap day return tickets allow you to break the journey on both the
outward and return trips.

How confusing! Not that long ago the same company made me buy two
returns, Paddington to Reading and Reading to Bath, so that I could
stop off and have lunch with friends on the way. But if I'd had a
cheap day return it seems I could have done so anyway.

But there isn't a CDR fare from London to Bath, only a Saver. Which
doesn't permit a break on the *outward* portion, only the *Return*.
--
Roland Perry

But really, how can you know? I'm sure such details aren't in the Help

The common ticket types are here on the National Rail website, which was
down this morning but now appears to be back up.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...ket_types.html

In message , at 11:45:06 on
Wed, 23 Jul 2008, Jo Lonergan remarked:
From the National Conditions of Carriage:

"16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in

[...]

But really, how can you know? I'm sure such details aren't in the Help
text you can access when buying from the machine. When you enter the
details of your journey in the machine and are offered 8 different
fares, is it reasonable to expect you to note down all their names and
consult a copy of the NCC before return to make your choice?

You are indeed supposed to consult such reference as the Conditions of
Carriage eg:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/en/pj/...etTypeCode=SVR

If you want to do something that's "unusual". Where breaking a journey
is clearly regarded as unusual. It (breaking a journey) is also
something that's quite difficult to do on a cheap air ticket as well; so
it's not just the railways who make breaks of journey one of the reasons
to buy a more flexible (and higher priced) tickets.
--
Roland Perry

Rod wrote:

Would this apply if the early termination of the journey was for a
reason such as illness?

Good question. As there is no specific exclusion in the T&Cs for
illness, one would assume it applied anyway in a legal sense, but if
you're carted off the station in an ambulance it's hardly as if
they're going to object.

Neil

In message , at 11:55:17 on Wed, 23
Jul 2008, Rod remarked:
Would this apply if the early termination of the journey was for a
reason such as illness?

There does not seem to be a suitable exclusion clause, which you might
ascribe to a lack of rigour, or may be evidence that people expect a
certain amount of discretion to be practised.
--
Roland Perry