In article ,
Neil Williams wrote:
My understanding in that situation is that, if you left the train
early on one of those tickets, you would be treated as if you had
completed the journey you did with no ticket at all (as by doing so
your ticket was rendered invalid, and thus it ceased to exist as a
valid ticket).

On the other hand if you were met at the barrier by a staff member who
says your ticket is invalid, you might say `oh I was just looking for
the sandwich shop / phone topup / etc and I'm going to get on the next
train'.

Not necessarily the most plausible story but hard to disprove. Is it
permitted to needlessly change trains ? I can think of any number of
reasons why you might want to.

--
Ian Jackson personal email:
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657

"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Neil Williams wrote:
My understanding in that situation is that, if you left the train
early on one of those tickets, you would be treated as if you had
completed the journey you did with no ticket at all (as by doing so
your ticket was rendered invalid, and thus it ceased to exist as a
valid ticket).

On the other hand if you were met at the barrier by a staff member who
says your ticket is invalid, you might say `oh I was just looking for
the sandwich shop / phone topup / etc and I'm going to get on the next
train'.

Not necessarily the most plausible story but hard to disprove. Is it
permitted to needlessly change trains ? I can think of any number of
reasons why you might want to.

As a general rule, the type of ticket that does not allow travelling short,
also requires travel on only on specific train (I.e the one that you have
just got off).

(there are tickets that allow you to make a connection at a branch onto "any
train", but the availability of such tickets is dependent on the
availability on the main part of the route. As such, this will always cost
more than a ticket for just the main part would have cost)

tim

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
Jo Lonergan wrote:

Was I breaking the terms of the ticket by leaving the train before it
had reached a London Terminal? And if so, would the staff have been
entitled physically to prevent me from leaving the station until I'd
paid a fine?

On a Cheap Day Return, no, as break of journey and ending short are
permitted on both portions of the ticket. However, that probably
isn't the question you wanted answered, which is presumably what would
have happened if this was done on a ticket where it was explicitly
*not* permitted to do this, such as Advance or Megatrain.

Is it a new condition of advance tickets that stopping short is not
permitted? I've been advised to do exactly that, and 'joining late' by
railway telesales staff int he past to save them work (I assumed).

In message , at
21:00:10 on Wed, 23 Jul 2008, mert1639
remarked:
Is it a new condition of advance tickets that stopping short is not
permitted?

Yes, a new condition to go with the new name a few months ago.

I've been advised to do exactly that, and 'joining late' by
railway telesales staff int he past to save them work (I assumed).

Not any more.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at
21:00:10 on Wed, 23 Jul 2008, mert1639
remarked:
Is it a new condition of advance tickets that stopping short is not
permitted?

Yes, a new condition to go with the new name a few months ago.

I've been advised to do exactly that, and 'joining late' by
railway telesales staff int he past to save them work (I assumed).

Not any more.
Thanks. That's good to know.

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:15:16 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:45:06 on
Wed, 23 Jul 2008, Jo Lonergan remarked:
From the National Conditions of Carriage:

"16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in

[...]

But really, how can you know? I'm sure such details aren't in the Help
text you can access when buying from the machine. When you enter the
details of your journey in the machine and are offered 8 different
fares, is it reasonable to expect you to note down all their names and
consult a copy of the NCC before return to make your choice?

You are indeed supposed to consult such reference as the Conditions of
Carriage eg:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/en/pj/...etTypeCode=SVR

So how can you do this at Paddington Station, when you're buying a
ticket from a machine?

If you want to do something that's "unusual". Where breaking a journey
is clearly regarded as unusual. It (breaking a journey) is also
something that's quite difficult to do on a cheap air ticket as well; so
it's not just the railways who make breaks of journey one of the reasons
to buy a more flexible (and higher priced) tickets.

Well yes, but if I were flying, let's say, from London to Zurich and
wanted to break the journey in Paris, I'd have to book different
flights anyway. Normally you can't get off without a parachute, and if
you could it would have to be without any luggage you'd checked in. I
don't see anything unusual in breaking a rail journey to visit friends
who live in between.

My impression is that the railways have taken the airlines as a model
from the very beginning of privatisation, a sort of delusion of
grandeur, if only the airlines had any grandeur. But the airlines,
AIUI, have never actually gone into a courtroom with their arguments
that you have, for example, to fly all the legs in the order you've
booked them.

Tomorrow I'm off back to a country where public transport functions
extremely well and the population is well disposed towards it, where a
rail journey is priced by the kilometer regardless of when you book,
where there are no barriers, and if you get onto a train without a
ticket there's no problem, they will just sell you one at the usual
price, or charge you GBP 1.5 extra if they're in a bad mood. What a
relief!

--
Jo Lonergan

"Jo Lonergan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:15:16 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:45:06 on
Wed, 23 Jul 2008, Jo Lonergan remarked:
From the National Conditions of Carriage:

"16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in

[...]

But really, how can you know? I'm sure such details aren't in the Help
text you can access when buying from the machine. When you enter the
details of your journey in the machine and are offered 8 different
fares, is it reasonable to expect you to note down all their names and
consult a copy of the NCC before return to make your choice?

You are indeed supposed to consult such reference as the Conditions of
Carriage eg:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/en/pj/...etTypeCode=SVR

So how can you do this at Paddington Station, when you're buying a
ticket from a machine?

I'd expect people to go to the booking office for any unsual requests so
things can be checked out. However, I'm not sure that a break of jouney is
really that unusual.
There really ought to be clearer information about restrictions on tickets
dispalyed at ticket machines and booking offices. I know they've simplified
the ticketing strucutre somewhat, but more is still required.

On 2008-07-23, Jo Lonergan wrote:
You are indeed supposed to consult such reference as the Conditions of
Carriage eg:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/en/pj/...etTypeCode=SVR

So how can you do this at Paddington Station, when you're buying a
ticket from a machine?

You go to the ticket office and ask to see a copy. In my experience,
this will cause the staff to look shocked and confused, and to spend
twenty minutes or more rooting around behind the scenes trying to find
a copy.

In message , at 22:45:04 on
Wed, 23 Jul 2008, Jo Lonergan remarked:

You are indeed supposed to consult such reference as the Conditions of
Carriage eg:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/en/pj/...etTypeCode=SVR

So how can you do this at Paddington Station, when you're buying a
ticket from a machine?

You can't, but the alternative [if you want full disclosure at every
point of sale] seems to be to remove the ability to buy cheap tickets
from a machine

It's a question that often crops up, but many of the rules about buying
tickets (eg what routes you can use) are not widely publicised at all.

If you want to do something that's "unusual". Where breaking a journey
is clearly regarded as unusual. It (breaking a journey) is also
something that's quite difficult to do on a cheap air ticket as well; so
it's not just the railways who make breaks of journey one of the reasons
to buy a more flexible (and higher priced) tickets.

Well yes, but if I were flying, let's say, from London to Zurich and
wanted to break the journey in Paris, I'd have to book different
flights anyway.

(Assuming you man "different tickets"...) Only if you were flying on a
low-cost airline. Traditional airlines could sell you a ticket with a
stopover.

Normally you can't get off without a parachute, and if
you could it would have to be without any luggage you'd checked in.

It's quite common to do a stopover as part of a long distance trip. You
can have your luggage with you simply by checking it to the intermediate
airport, not the final destination.

I don't see anything unusual in breaking a rail journey to visit
friends who live in between.

In terms of percentage of journeys made it is quite unusual, and many
tickets don't allow it.

My impression is that the railways have taken the airlines as a model
from the very beginning of privatisation, a sort of delusion of
grandeur, if only the airlines had any grandeur.

The ticketing rules we are talking about haven't changed much due to
privatisation.

But the airlines, AIUI, have never actually gone into a courtroom with
their arguments that you have, for example, to fly all the legs in the
order you've booked them.

They probably don't need to, as their T&C are very clear on the matter.

Tomorrow I'm off back to a country where public transport functions
extremely well and the population is well disposed towards it, where a
rail journey is priced by the kilometer regardless of when you book,
where there are no barriers, and if you get onto a train without a
ticket there's no problem, they will just sell you one at the usual
price, or charge you GBP 1.5 extra if they're in a bad mood. What a
relief!

The equivalent in the UK would be to only buy Open Returns. But you
seemed to want to take advantage of cheaper tickets, but which have
restrictions.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at
23:05:03 on Wed, 23 Jul 2008, mert1639
remarked:
However, I'm not sure that a break of jouney is really that unusual.

It's not "unusual" in the sense of "it's unusual to have pink hair", but
it isn't commonly a requirement of travellers.

There really ought to be clearer information about restrictions on tickets
dispalyed at ticket machines and booking offices. I know they've simplified
the ticketing strucutre somewhat, but more is still required.

Be careful what you wish for! The new rules coming in this Autumn may
well prohibit all "breaks" etc on all non-fullfare tickets.
--
Roland Perry