I have been asked by the police to supply on a voluntary basis 'familial
DNA'. Over 20 years ago my father was interviewed along with loads of other
people at his workplace about a murder. The police appear to have reopened
the the case and because my father died years ago, I have been asked to
supply the sample to 'eliminate' him. The policeman who spoke to me said it
would not go on the national database but as far as I am aware there is no
law that I could invoke to force the police to remove it if they added it
anyway, without my consent. So I intend to say 'no' until the law is
strengthened in this respect. I have no problems per se in giving a sample
for elimination purposes but only if I retain control over the sample. At
present the law denies me that control.

My question is: could they arrest me anyway and it take it by force? I am
not a suspect in this crime so I can't see how they could legally arrest me.
I'll probably pay to see a solicitor but I'd be interested to see what the
views here are first.

And please no lectures along the lines of 'if you have done nothing wrong,
you have nothing to hide'. I have done nothing wrong. I don't want my data
on the DNA database. End of. Deal with it.

"GeorgiePorgiePuddingAndPie" wrote in message
...
I have been asked by the police to supply on a voluntary basis 'familial
DNA'. Over 20 years ago my father was interviewed along with loads of
other
people at his workplace about a murder. The police appear to have
reopened
the the case and because my father died years ago, I have been asked to
supply the sample to 'eliminate' him. The policeman who spoke to me said
it
would not go on the national database but as far as I am aware there is no
law that I could invoke to force the police to remove it if they added it
anyway, without my consent. So I intend to say 'no' until the law is
strengthened in this respect. I have no problems per se in giving a
sample
for elimination purposes but only if I retain control over the sample. At
present the law denies me that control.

My question is: could they arrest me anyway and it take it by force? I am
not a suspect in this crime so I can't see how they could legally arrest
me.
I'll probably pay to see a solicitor but I'd be interested to see what the
views here are first.

And please no lectures along the lines of 'if you have done nothing wrong,
you have nothing to hide'. I have done nothing wrong. I don't want my
data
on the DNA database. End of. Deal with it.

If they have asked for your DNA on a voluntary basis that certainly implies
that they have no power to compel you. If they change their tune and say
that they require you to give the sample, you must ask them to quote the
statute that gives them that power, so that you can take legal advice.

I doubt if they have any such power but I can't claim to be any sort of
expert.

I won't give any lectures of the sort you have mentioned, but I assume you
have also considered whether it might be a good thing to help catch a
murderer who might still be a danger to society, and of course if the
murderer is proved to be dead the police might be able to devote more of
their efforts to solving other crimes. And I am curious to know whether you
would want to protect your father and your family from the possibility of a
disgraceful revelation, or whether you see it only as a DNA personal data
issue.

GeorgiePorgiePuddingAndPie wrote:
I have been asked by the police to supply on a voluntary basis 'familial
DNA'. Over 20 years ago my father was interviewed along with loads of other
people at his workplace about a murder. The police appear to have reopened
the the case and because my father died years ago, I have been asked to
supply the sample to 'eliminate' him. The policeman who spoke to me said it
would not go on the national database but as far as I am aware there is no
law that I could invoke to force the police to remove it if they added it
anyway, without my consent. So I intend to say 'no' until the law is
strengthened in this respect. I have no problems per se in giving a sample
for elimination purposes but only if I retain control over the sample. At
present the law denies me that control.

My question is: could they arrest me anyway and it take it by force? I am
not a suspect in this crime so I can't see how they could legally arrest me.
I'll probably pay to see a solicitor but I'd be interested to see what the
views here are first.

And please no lectures along the lines of 'if you have done nothing wrong,
you have nothing to hide'. I have done nothing wrong. I don't want my data
on the DNA database. End of. Deal with it.



Do you drive?

Ask the police officer if his DNA is on the database, in order to
eliminate him from any investigations. Ask him if his wife and
children's DNA are on the database.

Then decline.

Then expect your car number to be given to the local traffic police. Who
might, if they have nothing better to do (which covers a surprising
amount of their time, day and night), just follow you for a while now
and then. They will have you on the database, permanently, in no time at
all..

--
Sue

My question is: could they arrest me anyway and it take it by force? I am
not a suspect in this crime so I can't see how they could legally arrest me.

The domestic courts don't prevent illegally taken/retained samples from
being used in evidence, so there is no reason to take samples legally.

"The Todal" wrote in message
...

I won't give any lectures of the sort you have mentioned, but I assume you
have also considered whether it might be a good thing to help catch a
murderer who might still be a danger to society, and of course if the
murderer is proved to be dead the police might be able to devote more of
their efforts to solving other crimes.

I have already said that if the government changes the law so that there is
statutory protection for people who give DNA samples voluntarily then I
would consent to the sample being taken. It rather depends on how much the
state wants to clear up old cases versus its desire to build the DNA
database by stealth.

And I am curious to know whether you
would want to protect your father and your family from the possibility of
a
disgraceful revelation, or whether you see it only as a DNA personal data
issue.

I am long time campaigner on privacy issues so I am sort of expecting that
people will make unwarranted implications, as you have done. That is one
very powerful reason for resisting. But really, this could all be settled
fairly amicably if the state were to grant unconvicted people rights over
the disposition of their DNA profiles. If it won't do that then it can
hardly be surprised if people take the stance I have taken.

GeorgiePorgiePuddingAndPie posted
I have been asked by the police to supply on a voluntary basis 'familial
DNA'. Over 20 years ago my father was interviewed along with loads of other
people at his workplace about a murder. The police appear to have reopened
the the case and because my father died years ago, I have been asked to
supply the sample to 'eliminate' him. The policeman who spoke to me said it
would not go on the national database but as far as I am aware there is no
law that I could invoke to force the police to remove it if they added it
anyway, without my consent.

You are right AIUI. Whatever they say, they will almost certainly add it
to the database and never remove it. We know they are quite happy to lie
about it; they did constantly between 1985 and 2001.

So I intend to say 'no' until the law is
strengthened in this respect. I have no problems per se in giving a sample
for elimination purposes but only if I retain control over the sample. At
present the law denies me that control.

My question is: could they arrest me anyway and it take it by force? I am
not a suspect in this crime so I can't see how they could legally arrest me.

Quite. You might check CJA 2003, which I believe introduced the DNA
sampling and retention powers in force today.

I'll probably pay to see a solicitor but I'd be interested to see what the
views here are first.

A solicitor would probably not know the answer the question until he has
done exactly what you can do - consult the legislation.

What I would do, if the police get heavy, is ask them - a senior officer
naturally - what powers they think they have to demand a sample. Require
them to cite chapter and verse. Then check what they say against the
actual text of the statute.

--
Les
"Criticising the government is not illegal, but often on investigation turns
out to be linked to other offences."

"Palindrome" wrote in message
m...

Then expect your car number to be given to the local traffic police. Who
might, if they have nothing better to do (which covers a surprising amount
of their time, day and night), just follow you for a while now and then.
They will have you on the database, permanently, in no time at all..

Obviously the threat of police harrassment is of genuine concern to me,
which is why I may go public with this story.

Big Les Wade wrote:
GeorgiePorgiePuddingAndPie posted
. Then check what they
say against the actual text of the statute.

Of course, however, statute is not the only source of Law in England and
Wales.

Gaz

GeorgiePorgiePuddingAndPie wrote:
"The Todal" wrote in message
...

I won't give any lectures of the sort you have mentioned, but I
assume you have also considered whether it might be a good thing to
help catch a murderer who might still be a danger to society, and of
course if the murderer is proved to be dead the police might be able
to devote more of their efforts to solving other crimes.

I have already said that if the government changes the law so that
there is statutory protection for people who give DNA samples
voluntarily then I would consent to the sample being taken. It
rather depends on how much the state wants to clear up old cases
versus its desire to build the DNA database by stealth.

polite ripple of Wimbledon-style applause....


--
Criticising the government is not illegal, but on investigation often
turns out to be linked to other offences

GeorgiePorgiePuddingAndPie posted
"The Todal" wrote in message
...

I won't give any lectures of the sort you have mentioned, but I assume you
have also considered whether it might be a good thing to help catch a
murderer who might still be a danger to society, and of course if the
murderer is proved to be dead the police might be able to devote more of
their efforts to solving other crimes.

I have already said that if the government changes the law so that there is
statutory protection for people who give DNA samples voluntarily then I
would consent to the sample being taken.

But that wouldn't help. Such "statutory protection" actually existed
between 1984 and 2001, in that PACE required the police to destroy
samples where there had been no conviction. However, the police totally
ignored this statutory protection by the simple expedient of not telling
the FSS to destroy the samples. Of course, nothing was ever done about
this flagrant breach of PACE, because it is the police that enforce the
law.

The only thing that *was* done was the government made the police's
criminal actions retrospectively legal in (IIRC) CJA2003.

The whole thing stunk. But it did have the merit of proving once and for
all that the authorities do not feel obliged to keep their promises, or
even obey the law, if they so choose. That is surely a useful lesson
for you and for the rest of us.

--
Les