On Oct 21, 1:40*pm, "GB" wrote:
smithy wrote:
She has in the past brought the whole tram system in Manchester to a
halt during rush hour because she was on the tracks and they had to
turn the power off. Her ability to delay the process is very
frustrating to those of us that support her because of her behaviour.

Does she just stand in the middle of the road, or is she in a vehicle?

The section she was on is an old railway line so its not part of the
road network. She got to teh platform and just missed the tram she was
so angry that she jumped down onto the track and set off walking up
the line to the next tram station.She was intoxicated at teh time. A
tram driver going the opposite way saw her on the tracks and radioed
it in. They shut the power off and two maintenance men went and found
her, they walked up the tracks with her to the next station where the
Police were waiting. They detained her under the mental health Act and
she was seen by a shrink and an ASW, she told them that it was her
intention to jump in front of the tram, she was still under the
influence of alcohol at the time and was making threats to end her
life so they sectioned her, hence they didn't charge her with
trespass. She was at the time going through the courts for various
public order offences.

smithy

She has in the past brought the whole tram system in Manchester to a
halt during rush hour because she was on the tracks and they had to
turn the power off. Her ability to delay the process is very
frustrating to those of us that support her because of her behaviour.

Does she just stand in the middle of the road, or is she in a vehicle?

The section she was on is an old railway line so its not part of the
road network. She got to teh platform and just missed the tram she was
so angry that she jumped down onto the track and set off walking up
the line to the next tram station.She was intoxicated at teh time. A
tram driver going the opposite way saw her on the tracks and radioed
it in. They shut the power off and two maintenance men went and found
her, they walked up the tracks with her to the next station where the
Police were waiting. They detained her under the mental health Act and
she was seen by a shrink and an ASW, she told them that it was her
intention to jump in front of the tram, she was still under the
influence of alcohol at the time and was making threats to end her
life so they sectioned her, hence they didn't charge her with
trespass. She was at the time going through the courts for various
public order offences.


It sounds as though she needs compulsory psychiatric care rather than
prosecution.

Peter Crosland

On Oct 21, 4:05*pm, "Peter Crosland" wrote:
She has in the past brought the whole tram system in Manchester to a
halt during rush hour because she was on the tracks and they had to
turn the power off. Her ability to delay the process is very
frustrating to those of us that support her because of her behaviour.

Does she just stand in the middle of the road, or is she in a vehicle?

The section she was on is an old railway line so its not part of the
road network. She got to teh platform and just missed the tram she was
so angry that she jumped down onto the track and set off walking up
the line to the next tram station.She was intoxicated at teh time. A
tram driver going the opposite way saw her on the tracks and radioed
it in. They shut the power off and two maintenance men went and found
her, they walked up the tracks with her to the next station where the
Police were waiting. They detained her under the mental health Act and
she was seen by a shrink and an ASW, she told them that it was her
intention to jump in front of the tram, she was still under the
influence of alcohol at the time and was making threats to end her
life so they sectioned her, hence they didn't charge her with
trespass. She was at the time going through the courts for various
public order offences.

It sounds as though she needs compulsory psychiatric care rather than
prosecution.

Peter Crosland

You would think so, but its not a mental illness its behavioural, she
"chooses" to behave in this manner because it gets her attention. She
is incredibly lonely and bored, so she plans out what she can do to
entertain herself, has a drink for dutch courage and then acts on her
plans.

She is very bright and articulate, however, she doesn't see why she
should work when she can play the mental health card and get over £300
per week in benefits, £200 of which is cash in hand. She has stated
countless times that she has no intention of helping herself improve
her situation, all she wants to do is get her money, get ****ed and
have a laugh. Her version of entertainment is to wind a person up into
a confrontation. She gets a buzz from intimidating people.

She is "very" manipulative and plays the system. She has had leniency
and loads of support from playing the mental health card. She has
never felt the consequences of her actions because someone has always
bailed her out, but this time it has caught up with her.

Threatening to kill yourself is a powerful weapon. Acting in a manner
that puts other people at risk is even more powerful. She has been
under mental health services since 1999 and they have tried
everything, but her behaviour gets worse. She was on Probation for two
and a half years.

Last year she got a 20 month suspended sentence for 4 assaults on
Police officers, a month later she got a conditional discharge for a
public disorder offence. While on the suspended sentence she acted
responsibly, the suspended sentence expired in April, the conditional
discharge expired in May and in June she was arrested again.

this most recent offence was premeditated, i was at her flat earlier
in the evening and she told me what she was planning to do, she has
acted and got a shock because the neighbours involved the Police. She
has once again pleaded innocence and tried to hide behind mental
health services. But it has backfired.

For her to feel the consequences of her actions and be accountable in
court is needed. This has never happened before.

smithy

She has in the past brought the whole tram system in Manchester to a
halt during rush hour because she was on the tracks and they had to
turn the power off. Her ability to delay the process is very
frustrating to those of us that support her because of her behaviour.

Does she just stand in the middle of the road, or is she in a vehicle?

The section she was on is an old railway line so its not part of the
road network. She got to teh platform and just missed the tram she was
so angry that she jumped down onto the track and set off walking up
the line to the next tram station.She was intoxicated at teh time. A
tram driver going the opposite way saw her on the tracks and radioed
it in. They shut the power off and two maintenance men went and found
her, they walked up the tracks with her to the next station where the
Police were waiting. They detained her under the mental health Act and
she was seen by a shrink and an ASW, she told them that it was her
intention to jump in front of the tram, she was still under the
influence of alcohol at the time and was making threats to end her
life so they sectioned her, hence they didn't charge her with
trespass. She was at the time going through the courts for various
public order offences.

It sounds as though she needs compulsory psychiatric care rather than
prosecution.

Peter Crosland

You would think so, but its not a mental illness its behavioural, she
"chooses" to behave in this manner because it gets her attention. She
is incredibly lonely and bored, so she plans out what she can do to
entertain herself, has a drink for dutch courage and then acts on her
plans.

She is very bright and articulate, however, she doesn't see why she
should work when she can play the mental health card and get over £300
per week in benefits, £200 of which is cash in hand. She has stated
countless times that she has no intention of helping herself improve
her situation, all she wants to do is get her money, get ****ed and
have a laugh. Her version of entertainment is to wind a person up into
a confrontation. She gets a buzz from intimidating people.

She is "very" manipulative and plays the system. She has had leniency
and loads of support from playing the mental health card. She has
never felt the consequences of her actions because someone has always
bailed her out, but this time it has caught up with her.

Threatening to kill yourself is a powerful weapon. Acting in a manner
that puts other people at risk is even more powerful. She has been
under mental health services since 1999 and they have tried
everything, but her behaviour gets worse. She was on Probation for two
and a half years.

Last year she got a 20 month suspended sentence for 4 assaults on
Police officers, a month later she got a conditional discharge for a
public disorder offence. While on the suspended sentence she acted
responsibly, the suspended sentence expired in April, the conditional
discharge expired in May and in June she was arrested again.

this most recent offence was premeditated, i was at her flat earlier
in the evening and she told me what she was planning to do, she has
acted and got a shock because the neighbours involved the Police. She
has once again pleaded innocence and tried to hide behind mental
health services. But it has backfired.

For her to feel the consequences of her actions and be accountable in
court is needed. This has never happened before.


I have known people be sectioned for this sort of behaviour before.

Peter Crosland

On Oct 21, 10:15*pm, "Peter Crosland" wrote:
She has in the past brought the whole tram system in Manchester to a
halt during rush hour because she was on the tracks and they had to
turn the power off. Her ability to delay the process is very
frustrating to those of us that support her because of her behaviour.

What do you think should be done? I get the feeling that you think that a
spell in jail would do her good, even though she would lose her flat.

Are we generally too forgiving of disability in this country? Should we
adopt the approach the Spartans took?

On Oct 22, 3:50*pm, "GB" wrote:
What do you think should be done? I get the feeling that you think that a
spell in jail would do her good, even though she would lose her flat.


Her bail conditions at the moment are pretty strict and so have curbed
her behaviour, It was the same when she was on the suspended sentence
so the fear of losing her freedom is a powerful deterrant with her.
This latest incident she didn't think she would get arrested and she
certainly didn't expect charges of racially aggravated criminal
damage. This incident was the last of a series of confrontations that
she had with the neighbours.

i think the loss of her freedom and being compelled to conform to
routine and acceptable behaviour, will take away the novelty of
engaging in anti social behaviour, she will find out the "reality" of
acting the way she does. i think the experience will in the long run
make her think twice before she acts.

If she loses the flat and has to be rehoused then there is more chance
of getting her to accept supported accommodation which is something
that she needs but is resisting because it would impose rules about
behaviour.

If nothing changes then she will end up evicted because of her
behaviour anyway, and as they have already rehoused her 4 times its
not as though she has put roots down. All her prvious moves have
followed serious problems with behaviour and neighbour complaints.

Mental health services have gone way beyond what they need to do to
try to support her and i know that i certainly have given her more
time and support than anyone else i have been involved with, and the
support is just abused.

i personally think its time to let the criminal justice system takes
its full course, rather than being lenient because that leniency is
being abused.


Are we generally too forgiving of disability in this country? Should we
adopt the approach the Spartans took?

i don't think we are too forgiving with disability, but then i would
say that because i am disabled and it is still and uphill battle. But
i think with mental health issues there is a need to differentiate
between mental illness and alcohol fuelled criminal behaviour. I
personally don't find it acceptable to "play" the mental health card
as justification for unacceptable behaviour. It is people that abuse
the system that cause so many problems for people who are genuinely
disabled.


smithy

Yes they can refuse and they cannot be cross examined. The part in brackets is irrelevant and would not be brought to the notice of the Court.

They can and often do issue statements in this manner


Yes

The Court will draw inferrences from that refusal depending on what the quesions were

It depends on the charge. An arrest warrant can only be issued of the def is charged with an offence that carries imprisonment. Otherwise it will be dealt with in their absence.

Yes , the Police would.
The Court cannot proceed with the case if someone is not well enough to continue. They are not qualified to diagnose a medical condition, faked or not and medical advice would be sought.

Would depend entirely on whether or not the Court decided they are able to understand the proceedings.

thanks

smithy

The Court cannot proceed with the case if someone is not well enough to
continue. They are not qualified to diagnose a medical condition, faked
or not and medical advice would be sought.

*What would happen if they turned up at court under the influence of
alcohol or drugs ?

Would depend entirely on whether or not the Court decided they are able
to understand the proceedings.

thanks for the info

This case has supposedly been heard since July, however, the defendant
has so far been able to avoid the trial claiming poor health.

The magistrates said this last time that the trial would go ahead next
time despite the defendants demeanour. It is anticipated that the
defendant will turn up under the influence of drugs and alcohol to
delay the process further and i am just trying towork out how long
this will be allowed to continue.

smithy

In the past, when someone has turned up under the influence for the second time we have
put he case back for a couple of days and remanded them in custody. That usually does the
trick.