Our supplier supports our computer hardware - has an annual contract -
some months there will be now problems other months many problems -
but same fixed fee. Contract states invoice 'monthly in advance'. With
credit terms of 'nett 30'. Nett 30 some say is 30 days from invoice
date (but I would suggest that traditionally its 30 days end of
month?).

So December service month should be dated 30 November. Payable by the
end of December. What they are doing now is dating it 1 November so
they can get the money by 1 December. They are a big company and we
are small - so they can 'bully' us. We won't renew with them but for
the moment need them not to put the service on stop for 'non-payment'.

I've argues that:
a) They are raising it "a month in advance" - where as the contract
says "billing monthly - in advance"
b) The HMRC states that:
"Not creating a tax point before it is necessary to do so

If you need to issue a sales document for goods or services you
haven't supplied yet, you can issue a 'pro forma' invoice or a similar
request for payment to offer goods or services to customers.

If you use pro forma invoices you should clearly mark them with the
words 'This is not a VAT invoice'.

If your would-be customer accepts the goods or services you're
offering them and if you actually supply them a tax point arises and
you'll need to issue a VAT invoice the sooner of 14 days after
delivery or when payment is received."

Can I use the above from HMRC to insist that they invoice on 30
November and not 1 November for the December service - or have I
missed something? (Its an ongoing service - but this rule still
applies as far as I can see)

I have told them all of this - and they just ignor me (as opposed to
say why I am wrong). To make it worse we are paying a premium for a
24/7 4 hour FIX and the service level is more like next business day
business hours only - another point they don't want to discuss. We
need their (rubbish) service for the moment - but will renew with
someone else.

As cash is tight - can I insist that they date the invoice on 30 Nov
as opposed to 1 Nov?

" gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying:

So December service month should be dated 30 November. Payable by the
end of December. What they are doing now is dating it 1 November so they
can get the money by 1 December.

It's moved forwards 30 days, so you had two invoices on consecutive days
at some stage?

Or it's moved backwards one day?

Have you had invoices dated...
End Aug
End Sep
End Oct
Start Nov

or
End Aug
End Sep
End Oct
Start Dec
?

I've argues that:
a) They are raising it "a month in advance" - where as the contract says
"billing monthly - in advance"

Umm, would you explain the difference, because it's a bit subtle for me...

On Nov 13, 9:40 pm, "
wrote:
Our supplier supports our computer hardware - has an annual contract -
some months there will be now problems other months many problems -
but same fixed fee. Contract states invoice 'monthly in advance'.
To me that means they can issue the invoice just before the start of
the month in question (ie the bill for December is invoiced on 30th
November).

Issuing an invoice on 1st November for a service that doesn't start
until 1st December is taking the micky.

With credit terms of 'nett 30'. Nett 30 some say is 30 days from
invoice date
What else could it mean?
(but I would suggest that traditionally its 30 days end of
month?).
No. Some people get in to the habit of not paying their invoice on
time, and suppliers often don't bother chasing straight away, but
"Nett 30" means "30 days from date of invoice".

Note that if you /have/ been in the habit of not paying their invoice
on time, then you are liable for statutory interest on the overdue
balance - and they can go back and persue you for this for each
overdue bill in the last six years. - This obviously rather weakens
your bargaining position about the early invoicing.

On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 10:55:14 +0000, Martin Bonner
wrote:

On Nov 13, 9:40 pm, "
wrote:
Our supplier supports our computer hardware - has an annual contract -
some months there will be now problems other months many problems -
but same fixed fee. Contract states invoice 'monthly in advance'.
To me that means they can issue the invoice just before the start of
the month in question (ie the bill for December is invoiced on 30th
November).

Issuing an invoice on 1st November for a service that doesn't start
until 1st December is taking the micky.

With credit terms of 'nett 30'. Nett 30 some say is 30 days from
invoice date
What else could it mean?
(but I would suggest that traditionally its 30 days end of
month?).
No. Some people get in to the habit of not paying their invoice on
time, and suppliers often don't bother chasing straight away, but
"Nett 30" means "30 days from date of invoice".

Note that if you /have/ been in the habit of not paying their invoice
on time, then you are liable for statutory interest on the overdue
balance - and they can go back and persue you for this for each
overdue bill in the last six years. - This obviously rather weakens
your bargaining position about the early invoicing.

I noticed the OPs remark about cash being tight and I'm not taking the
p*ss but I'd just like to throw in a remark about settlement
discounts. I always settle comercial invoices immediately if I am
offered a settlement discount - one company gives me 3.75% for seven
days, 2.50% for within the 30 day term - because for me the amount
saved is more than the cost of borrowing the money or loss of interest
on a deposit account.

Companies that do this will often calculate the VAT portion of the
invoice on the basis of the lower, settled price. It may be worth
while for the OP to check the calculation of VAT on the invoice and if
it is only being charged on 96.25% or 97.5% of the invoice value I
would consider the OP to be reasonable if they deducted the discount
before paying.

Nick
--
real e-mail is nickodell (at) bigfoot (dot) com

Martin Bonner wrote:

On Nov 13, 9:40 pm, "
wrote:
Our supplier supports our computer hardware - has an annual contract -
some months there will be now problems other months many problems -
but same fixed fee. Contract states invoice 'monthly in advance'.
To me that means they can issue the invoice just before the start of
the month in question (ie the bill for December is invoiced on 30th
November).

Issuing an invoice on 1st November for a service that doesn't start
until 1st December is taking the micky.

Not if the terms are thirty days nett in advance its not

With credit terms of 'nett 30'. Nett 30 some say is 30 days from
invoice date
What else could it mean?
(but I would suggest that traditionally its 30 days end of
month?).
No. Some people get in to the habit of not paying their invoice on
time, and suppliers often don't bother chasing straight away, but
"Nett 30" means "30 days from date of invoice".

Note that if you have been in the habit of not paying their invoice
on time, then you are liable for statutory interest on the overdue
balance - and they can go back and persue you for this for each
overdue bill in the last six years. - This obviously rather weakens
your bargaining position about the early invoicing.



--

On Nov 13, 10:00*pm, Adrian wrote:
" gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying:

I've argues that:
a) They are raising it "a month in advance" - where as the contract says
"billing monthly - in advance"

Umm, would you explain the difference, because it's a bit subtle for me....

Raising the invoice a month in advance is creating the invoice a month
before the product or service being billed is delivered or available.

Billing monthly in advance is an ongoing bill every month, where the
invoice is created at some unspecified point before the product or
service being billed is delivered or available


@ the OP: It seems to me that if they bill you in June for December,
July for the next January, August for February etc, they are still
within the terms of the contact clauses you've reproduced here.

On 13 Nov, 21:40, "
wrote:
Our supplier supports our computer hardware - has an annual contract -
some months there will be now problems other months many problems -
but same fixed fee. Contract states invoice 'monthly in advance'. With
credit terms of 'nett 30'. Nett 30 some say is 30 days from invoice
date (but I would suggest that traditionally its 30 days end of
month?).

So December service month should be dated 30 November. Payable by the
end of December. What they are doing now is dating it 1 November so
they can get the money by 1 December. They are a big company and we
are small - so they can 'bully' us. We won't renew with them but for
the moment need them not to put the service on stop for 'non-payment'.

I've argues that:
a) They are raising it "a month in advance" - where as the contract
says "billing monthly - in advance"
b) The HMRC states that:
"Not creating a tax point before it is necessary to do so

If you need to issue a sales document for goods or services you
haven't supplied yet, you can issue a 'pro forma' invoice or a similar
request for payment to offer goods or services to customers.

If you use pro forma invoices you should clearly mark them with the
words 'This is not a VAT invoice'.

If your would-be customer accepts the goods or services you're
offering them and if you actually supply them a tax point arises and
you'll need to issue a VAT invoice the sooner of 14 days after
delivery or when payment is received."

Can I use the above from HMRC to insist that they invoice on 30
November and not 1 November for the December service - or have I
missed something? (Its an ongoing service - but this rule still
applies as far as I can see)

I have told them all of this - and they just ignor me (as opposed to
say why I am wrong). To make it worse we are paying a premium for a
24/7 4 hour FIX and the service level is more like next business day
business hours only - another point they don't want to discuss. We
need their (rubbish) service for the moment - but will renew with
someone else.

As cash is tight - can I insist that they date the invoice on 30
as opposed to 1 Nov?

I think you are confusing what billing monthly in advance means
This appears to be perfectly streight forward
What you agreed to do is to be invoiced and critically to pay up
before the first day of the service month.

The 30 days is just a courtesy so you do can batch process invoices
It is not a free loan for you to improve your cashflow

What you seem to be trying to do is to actually pay at the end of the
service month. ( or even worse 30 days after that)
Ie not paying in advance

As times are tight I would suggest that the wisest thing that they can
do with customers who need to delay payment is to be sure that the
original terms are kept to in case said customer does a runner. This
is common sense and not bullying